It was January of 2001 and my mom had just died.  Unresolved family of origin issues were rolling inside of me like an afternoon storm in the Rockies. So perhaps it wasn’t the very best time to be reading a book on understanding the secret of  the masculine soul.  Or maybe it was the perfect time.

Either way, when I finished the last pages of  Wild at Heart I didn’t bother to close the book.  With contempt I just threw it on the floor.

“I’m not a real man,” I reasoned.  ”I don’t hunt, I don’t rock climb, and I don’t flyfish.  I don’t camp, canoe, or go with guys who do.  I guess I’m just screwed.”

Okay, so maybe I have some issues.

But when shame starts gurgling from somewhere deep in your soul it’s easier to hate the messenger than to deal with the message.  Fortunately, after nearly a decade I’ve found freedom from shame, and come to deeply appreciate both the message and the messenger who is John Eldredge.

It would not be a an overstatement, though, to say that Eldredge is a polarizing figure among American evangelicals.  For some his writings strike a deep chord, while for others they touch a raw nerve.  For the latter group I’ve often wondered whether it’s the man, the message, or a charicature of both that causes sparks to fly.

After all, what is one supposed to think when he makes the cover of Christianity Today (July 2004) with the words, “John Eldredge thinks too many Christians are weak, and churches are often insipid–and he’s not going to take it anymore.” ? What comes to mind is a Terminator-Iron Man-Jesus.  A Christian man lacking humility, depth, and intellect.

So, I sat down and had a conversation with the man himself.  Mostly because I wanted to hear his heart.  What I experienced was  a man with humility, depth, and  intellect.  A man whose intense spiritual focus is balanced with an almost childlike exuberance.  And nowhere during our time did I encounter the hyper-testosteroned man who is ‘not going to take it anymore.’

As a huge bonus, we were joined by  Craig McConnell, one of John”s colleauge’s at Ransomed Heart Ministries, who served over twenty years in two separate mega-churches and who offers much wisdom in relation to walking God.  As you will hear, our conversation was lively–full of scripture, and full of the idea that there is more to following Jesus than what most of us believe or expect for our own lives.

That indeed, this is not as good as it gets.To download this file to your hard drive, simply right click here. (For Mac, control-click)

Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.

Dallas Willard is not in a rush.  In fact, spending an hour in conversation with him, it  becomes apparent that he moves to the rhythm of an altogether different drumbeat–an other-worldly drumbeat.   A rhythm which emanates from somewhere deep inside.

As we are introduced I immediately begin to wonder, “Where have I heard this voice before?” Suddenly I realize that this noted scholar’s voice is one part  William F. Buckley and one part Thurston Howell, III.   I try not to act too distracted.

What does one expect  when talking with an intellectual and spiritual giant?  Hubris?  Condescenion?  Distraction?  None of these are present though during our time together.   All said, Dallas is one of the most present, humble men I’ve ever met.

When the interview is over I thank him once more and we shake hands.  I release my hand shake at the socially appropriate moment.   But Dallas holds on.  I’m in a rush to move along, though I have nowhere in particular to be.  I’m caught off guard  by the power of his being.

After an uncomfortably long time he releases my hand.  He blesses me.   I feel unsettled–but in a good way.

I wonder to myself, “Could this be holiness I’ve just encountered?”

I think so.

Question:  What stood out to you in this conversation?

To learn more you can visit www.dwillard.org.

To download this file to your hard drive, simply right click here. (For Mac, control-click)

Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.

Question: What do you get when you  take an exhausted, but relentlessly driven pastor in New York city,  add in his wife who tells him she’s quitting their church because she doesn’t respect his leadership, then put them together in a Trappist Monatery for four months?

Answer: Emotionally Healthy Spirituality.  And, one heck of a conversation with Peter Scazzero.

Peter serves as pastor of New Life Fellowship, a multi-ethnic church in Queens, New York City, and is an author and speaker whose books include, “The Emotionally Healthy Church,” and “Emotionally Healthy Spirituality.”

To learn more visit www.emotionallyhealthyspirituality.org.

To download this file to your hard drive, simply right click here and save to disk. (For Mac, control-click)

Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.